Finolex Industries Limited (FINPIPE) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to Finolex Industries Q4 FY '24 Conference Call hosted by ICICI Securities. [Operator Instructions] Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Sohil Kaura from ICICI Securities. Thank you, and over to you, sir.

Thank you. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. On behalf of ICICI Securities, I welcome you all to the Q4 FY '24 Post-Earnings Conference Call of Finolex Industries Limited. On behalf of the management, we have Mr. Ajit Venkataraman, MD; and Mr. Niraj Kedia, CFO. I now hand over the call to management for their opening remarks, post which we will open the forum for Q&A. Thank you, and over to you, sir.

Thank you, Sohil. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to the investor conference call with Q4 FY '24 and FY '24 earnings release. We thank you all for your continued support and interest in Finolex Industries Limited. The company closed the quarter on a very strong note with over 23% growth in volumes. This also led to increased profitability for the quarter. On a full year basis, FY '24 reported another milestone achievement of record volume growth of over 3.3 lakh tonnes in Pipes and Fittings segment. Let me give you some of the performance indicators. Q4 FY '24 highlights: Total income from operations was INR 1,235.42 crores or for Q4 FY '24, up 8.27% against INR 1,141.06 crores Q4 FY '23. EBITDA declared by -- declined by 3.91% year-on-year to INR 208.93 crores in Q4 FY '24 compared to INR 217.43 crores, in Q4 FY '23. EBITDA margin during this quarter stood at 16.9% compared to 19.1% corresponding previous quarter Q4 FY '23. The company reported a PAT of INR 161.43 crores in Q4 FY '24 against INR 158.35 crores in Q4 FY '23. Now getting into segmental performance. Pipes and Fittings segment. The Pipes and Fittings segment revenue increased by 7.23% year-on-year to INR 1,182.18 crores in Q4 FY '24, from INR 1,102.11 crores in Q4 FY '23. Volume in Pipes & Fittings segment improved significantly by 22.98% year-on-year to 100,171 metric tonnes in Q4 FY '24 against 81,452 metric tonnes in quarter -- corresponding last quarter. The EBIT in Pipes and Fittings segment also increased by over 47% to INR 132.81 crores in Q4 FY '24 compared to an EBIT of INR 90.32 crores in Q4 FY '23. Moving to PVC Resin segment. Revenue in Resin segment stood at INR 507.48 crores in Q4 FY '24 compared to INR 501.29 crores in Q4 FY '23. Volume in the Resin segment increased 19.07% to 69,215 metric tonnes in Q4 FY '24 against 58,132 metric tonnes in Q4 FY '23. EBIT in Resin segment stood at INR 66.63 crores in Q4 FY '24 compared to INR 117.25 crores in corresponding previous year quarter. The company continues to have a strong balance sheet with a net cash surplus of roughly INR 1,820 crores as on 31st of March '24. It is to be noted that the subsequent to 31st March 2024, that is in April 2024, the company has transferred leasehold rights of 25.27 acres of land in Chinchwad, Pune and recorded a net gain of INR 416.99 crores on such transfer. This figure is not included in FY '24 profits. Let me now leave the floor open for questions. Thank you.

[Operator Instructions] The first question is from the line of Ritesh Shah from Investec.

A couple of questions. The first is for Niraj. Sir, can you highlight first on working capital days. One is inventory? Second is credit days specifically for agri and non-agri, PVC and CPVC. And the number of days, what we are looking at, is this the new normal that we should lever?

See, on receivables, as our component of non-agri grows and as our -- the receivables days will obviously slightly go up. So this is something that you can assume to be normal going forward also. See, every time on every quarter's balance sheet end date, there may be some pluses and minus depending on that day of the year. But gradually, generally speaking, this should be a normal trend in terms of receivables going forward. In inventory, actually, there was some buildup of inventory on the resin side. So that is what is leading to the higher inventory days. But that is, I would say, not a very normal kind of phenomenon. That should normalize.

Right. And sir, on credit base, can you quantify how much -- I would presume for agri, it would be cash and carry, on non-agri basically for PVC and CPVC, how is that in the marketplace?

See, we don't differentiate in the credit days between PVC and CPVC. And the credit ranges from 30 to 60 days.

That was helpful. Two questions for Ajit, sir. Sir, payout is great. Cash on books is great. If you could highlight on the incremental CapEx for FY '25, '26 with the end use?

So the planned CapEx for FY '25 is INR 150 crores. And we are also exploring opportunities for expansion. So that is -- that will happen as and when it certifies.

Okay. And sir, last question for you. Since joining, you would have taken a number of initiatives properly, the strong volume growth is one of them. Can you highlight like what were the key variables that you had on your yards taken? And where do you stand on it right now?

So in terms of the organization, our -- we would like to grow in the Agri segment, which is our strength, and we are also focusing on accelerated growth in the Non-agri segment. And this is taking routes, and we are seeing that success in various urban markets, especially. And this is growing on the back of the growth in the Building & Construction segment. And that is something which we have done, and we are also focusing on projects which is resulting in growth in the Non-agri segment.

Sir, any other variables? Anything on supply chain, manufacturing, HR, operations?

We have a good set of people who are running the operations. The management team is complete. And we have taken several initiatives. We have grown in all -- our focus has been mainly in the Non-agri segment. We have been rationalizing our dealers' network. We have been growing in the areas which we wanted to grow. We have also been eliminating nonperforming dealerships. And all these have resulted in very focused efforts from the organization to grow the Non-agri segment.

Plus Ritesh just to add, some of the things that we have done probably in the last year which is noteworthy is plumber loyalty program, which went live. This is something that was a gap, probably I can say, for quite a while. And it is having good traction. We are receiving very strong feedback on the cities and the market where we've launched it. So hopefully, in a year's time, we will be a widespread launch of this program across India. That is something that we should keep looking at outward.

The next question is from the line of Praveen Sahay from Prabhudas Lilladher.

So first one, can you give the PVC-EDC and the PVC spread numbers for a quarter and the current?

So PVC for the quarter was $785. EDC was $358, and VCM was $650. PVC-EDC delta for the quarter was $427 and the PVC-VCM delta was $135. Today, as we speak, there is a slight improvement in PVC. PVC has been trending around $800. EDC, on the other hand, has reduced. It has gone to $320. And VCM has more or less remained stable at $660. In terms of delta, the most recent delta that I can tell you, PVC-EDC is $480, 4-8-0 and PVC-VCM is $140.

And one thing on the CapEx side. As you have mentioned the [indiscernible] for this year. And if I remember, last time also you had some indicated that you're evaluating the plant's location expansions as well. So any color on the geographical expansion for the company?

No, this INR 150 crores, which we are talking about is for incremental capacity addition and maintenance CapEx. Any expansion in terms of capacity will be coming in addition to this. At this point of time, we are evaluating it.

Currently, how much capacity of Pipes and Fittings you have, end of this '24?

So the total capacity we have is 470,000 metric tonnes, out of which the fittings will be about 48,000 metric tonnes.

And also, if you can give some color on the full year. Definitely, you are not giving the [indiscernible], but any indicative number for a full year, how has been -- because you had commissioned the plant as well. So [indiscernible] growth rate in the financial year FY '24 in the Pipes and Fittings segment? And if you can give some indicative contribution numbers as well.

See, we do not split it up. But in terms of the fitting plant, which we had installed in March of FY '23, the plant is close to near-end capacity utilization. Capacity was set up for almost 1,000 -- 900 to 1,000 metric tonnes per month. And we are hitting close to that. And we are -- with the improvement in Non-agri segment, we expect that the fittings' contribution to the overall revenue would grow.

The next question is from the line of Sneha Talreja from Nuvama.

A couple of questions from my end. Sir, firstly on channel inventory, where does this stand now? Are we still seeing some of inventory increase or decrease? Or is this at a stable level?

As long as the PVC prices are stable, we expect the channel inventory to be stable as well.

And we are not expecting any major up move in the PVC crisis, given that there is anti-dumping duty talks also on. So some flavor there would be helpful.

We have to wait and watch. It's not just anti-dumping duty. It's also going to be dependent upon the Middle East situation, which has been quite volatile. So we are constantly watching -- very closely watching this situation. And let us see how this situation emerges.

Understood, sir. Sir, secondly, what would be your FY '24 agri versus non-agri mix? And any guidances there?

So it is -- the agri, non-agri mix would be in the range of about 63%, 64% versus 36%.

Understood. And any guidance there for 1 or 2 years? Where do we see growing?

Our aim is to move this to almost 50-50 in the next 3 to 4 years.

The next question is from the line of Udit from Yes Securities.

Yes. Sir, firstly, in terms of growth guidance for next year, how does that move?

So our expectation is that the growth will be anywhere between 10% and 15%. And that is -- that will be in line with what is expected for the industry over the next 4 to 5 years.

Okay. But sir, on the rated capacity of 470,000 tonnes, even if you're expecting a growth of 12%, basically on volumes and that is an 80% utilization. Does the plant allow that utilization? I mean, at peak what utilization can be reached?

Our plants can take some incremental capacity as well. We can add to our existing capacity. But yes, definitely, over the next 2 to 3 years, we need -- definitely need additional capacity coming in and we are evaluating it at this point of time.

Yes, right. And you have said this, are you also looking out for any inorganic growth or this will be purely that you want to go for a different region plant itself?

It will be organic growth.

Okay. So upon that any new capacity, even if you have finalized the plan, say, next quarter, coming it on stream will only be in FY '27. Is that understanding correct? Because 18 to 20 months will be the bare minimum time you'll require.

Correct. That is accurate. And it will take -- but we do have headroom in our existing, and we can add additional capacity in our existing locations as well.

Okay, sir. And sir, lastly, on PVC Resin front, is there any new domestic capacity coming up? There were some talks of some major players coming in. But what is the...

So there are talks. We see on emulsion side, there was some capacity addition last year. But on the suspension side, nothing has come up as such. And you are right, there are media news articles which keep coming, but we don't see any major capacity coming at least this year or the next year. Not something that is immediate in our view. But if something comes up, we will all get to know.

Got it. And sir, lastly, just one question on Q4 other expenses front, we have seen a decline of 9% on Y-o-Y basis. So what was the expenditure which has come down because that has given a good push to our overall operating margins?

See, one thing is power was down because coal rates have kind of stabilized. So power has reduced. So that is one of the reasons. These are normal business expenses. Some quarters will be slightly high, slightly low, so that is not a major such problem with that. Nothing major has happened between this year Q4 and last year Q4.

The next question is from the line of Utkarsh Nopany from BOB Capital Markets.

Sir, my first question is regarding on your pipe margin. So we have seen a sharp sequential improvement in our pipe EBIT per unit versus what we have seen that [indiscernible] seen slight decline in the margin on a Q-on-Q basis. Can you please explain the reason for it?

A couple of reasons here. In our case, if you see, we have the 100,000 tonnes of pipe this quarter. We have never done 100,000 tonnes in the past. So the benefits of scale have accrued to us in this quarter. And on competition, it's better that they answer the question. But what we are seeing definitely in the market is fierce competition and even pricing actions being taken by some competition in some markets. So that may be one of the reasons why you see this difference. But in our case, as I said, one of the major reasons is the benefit of scale.

Yes. Because the reason why I'm asking the competition has, in fact, posted even much higher volume growth compared to what we have posted. And for that entire industry, the margin is coming under pressure, but that is not the case for us. So what thing we have done special, which has resulted into improvement in our margin, which is not the trend for the industry.

Overall utilization has improved and also, to an extent, the product mix also helps in the whole equation. If you actually look at it from an EBIT per kg perspective, we did see a significant improvement, INR 11.9 per kg versus INR 5.09 per kg compared to FY '23. And various measures in terms of improvement in plant efficiency in terms of overall improvement in volume itself helps in the whole equation.

Okay. After March quarter result, so whether we would like to revise our earlier quite a bit guidance of INR 10 to INR 12 per kg going forward [indiscernible]?

We have always said we used to be INR 6 to INR 8, and now we're comfortable in that INR 10, INR 12 and that the target is in the next 2 to 3 years. We comfortably reach the INR 14 plus mark. What happens is any -- on any given year, given quarter, depending on PVC prices, some of these may impact plus if you see this number has come in a quarter, which has been very high volume, so efficiency of scale has come. So we'll not like to revise our guidance very immediately. But INR 10, INR 12 continues to be our guidance for near future, depending subject to PVC prices.

Okay. And sir, lastly, on the demand front, if you can provide some color, how is the demand environment for agri price in the current June quarter and can we expect very healthy double-digit volume growth in this June quarter compared to last year because of table [indiscernible] prices?

Yes, you're right with stable PVC prices, our expectation is that the agri demand will be in the high single digits. And you also look at it from the Building & Construction segment, you are seeing a robust growth in that segment as well, and we expect that to be in the high teens.

The next question is from the line of Gokul Maheshwari from Awriga Capital Advisors.

So my first question is, sir, if I just broadly break up the FY '24 volumes, agri would be having a low single-digit volume growth and there would be more like 25%, 30% growth in the -- something in the construction, non-agri pipe. Is the broad indications, right?

So yes, it will be -- agri will be in the higher single digits. And very similarly, in non-agri, it will be in the higher teens, yes. Both will be in those range itself. We did see a drop in agri volumes especially in Q2 -- Q3, I'm sorry, and which has picked up quite robustly in Q4 and continues to be in Q1.

Just a confirmation on the CapEx, which you were sort of [indiscernible]. Are you planning to expand any capacity in the PVC business as well?

No, not in PVC segment. Most of the incremental capacity expansion will be coming in the Pipes and Fittings segment and also maintenance budget.

Could be even beyond your core region, which is -- because your current facilities are in Western part of the country. Would you be open to even look at the other regions to set up a new facility in the pipes business?

Yes, we are evaluating all options.

And lastly, just as a data point, could you give an indication of the volumes for the PVC business, external and internal sales from Q4 and FY '24?

See, FY '25, we are expecting volumes which are more or less similar to what we had in FY '23. And it might improve a little bit based on the -- last year, we did have some capacity -- some supplier issues, and that resulted in non-availability of raw material. And that situation is likely to improve this year, and therefore, we are expecting a little bit better volumes this year.

No. My question was on Q4...

So this year, we have sold roughly 14,000, 15,000 tonnes of PVC externally, balance all we have consumed in-house. So last year, if you remember, we had sold roughly 27,000 tonnes outside. This year, it is half. We just sold 41,000 tonnes outside, balance 180,000-odd tonnes we have used ourselves.

Could you give the number for Q4 as well.

Q4?

Q4, yes.

Q4 external sales will be 6,000 tonnes.

And lastly, just on the margin front, when you mentioned that directionally, you should be touching that INR 14 kind of a number, but with more proportion of non-agri [indiscernible] over time, these would be the primary factors to where your margins are higher and hence directionally, your margins should move up over the next 2, 3 years? Or is there any other factor?

Yes. efficiency improvement along with these factors, yes.

The next question is from the line of Praveen Sahay from Prabhudas Lilladher.

I'm just repeating maybe. But can you give us some indication that out of your INR 150-odd crores of CapEx, how much is the capacity region you are looking at? Because the question is how much the better utilization -- or the maximum utilization you can go up to actually because the FY '23, we had seen the capacity utilization has gone beyond 80%. So is it possible to run at 80% of the utilization or your -- how much of the capacity you are adding will give such kind of CapEx?

So Praveen, instead of getting into numbers, let me give you some qualitative inputs. So this year, we will be adding some modular capacity in some of our -- in a couple of our plants, especially in the mother plant. So that -- see, we can easily make 110,000 and 120,000 tonnes in a quarter, okay? We have done it now probably in 2 quarters. So from a capacity side, we don't see any constraint. We don't see any issues when the demand comes. And we have been getting to the demand. During this year, as Ajit was saying, and as you also would be aware that it will be difficult to kind of set up a plan this year. But on a modular basis, we will be adding capacity during the year. If you remember, even last year, in our pipes, we added 20,000-odd tonnes capacity. That was just by adding [indiscernible]. And we'll be doing the same this year also.

And we are also looking at replacing some of the old ones with more higher output machines. So that does help in improving the capacity in a very modular basis.

Second question is related to the PVC Resin at [indiscernible] that is why the volume for external sales is lower. So the way forward, you wanted to sell nearly around 26,000, 27,000 tonnes of PVC Resin externally. That is what you are saying?

So Praveen, we would like to use as much resin as possible in-house. See, there are some customers whose operations are so to say, dependent on our grade of resin for our quality of resin. So we continue with those small quantities, but incrementally going forward, we will be using our own resin more and more.