Cytokinetics, Incorporated (CYTK) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

November 23, 2020

NASDAQ US Health Care Biotechnology special 76 min

Earnings Call Speaker Segments

Operator

operator
#1

Good afternoon, and welcome, ladies and gentlemen, to Cytokinetics Conference Call. At this time, I would like to inform you that this call is being recorded. [Operator Instructions] I would now like to turn the call over to Diane Weiser, Cytokinetics Senior Vice President of Corporate Communications and Investor Relations. Please go ahead.

Diane Weiser

executive
#2

Good morning, everyone, and thanks for joining us on the call today. Robert Blum, our President and Chief Executive Officer, will begin with an overview of today's announcement and next steps related to omecamtiv mecarbil. Then we'll open the call to questions, and Robert will be joined by Fady Malik, Executive Vice President of R&D; Libby Schnieders, Senior Vice President of Business Development; Ching Jaw, Senior Vice President and Chief Financial Officer; and Mark Schlossberg, Senior Vice President, Legal & General Counsel. Please note that portions of the following discussion, including our responses to questions, contain statements that relate to future events and performance rather than historical facts and constitute forward-looking statements. Our actual results may differ materially from those projected in these forward-looking statements. Additional information concerning factors that could cause our actual results to differ materially from those in these forward-looking statements is contained in today's press release regarding Amgen's termination of our collaboration agreement available on our website as well as in our SEC filings. We undertake no obligation to update any forward-looking statements after this call. And now I will turn the call over to Robert.

Robert I. Blum

executive
#3

Thank you, Diane, and thank you to everyone for joining us on the call this morning. On Friday of last week, we received notice from Amgen of its termination of our collaboration agreement and its intention to transfer the further development of omecamtiv mecarbil and AMG 594 to Cytokinetics. This notification came as a surprise to us. We and Amgen had previously discussed conducting further analyses of the data arising from GALACTIC-HF and engaging opinion leaders to assess their views on the data as well as to jointly conduct market research on agreed target product profiles. We had planned together for activities that would stretch into 2021 and we expected those activities would result and are having senior level executive discussions in Q1 2021 regarding potential next steps. We had no indications prior to Friday that Amgen would choose to provide their termination notice before completion of these activities. With that said, Cytokinetics will now be gained rights to the field of cardiac sarcomere activation, a field we first pioneered, progressed into clinical development and have worked side-by-side with Amgen to advance. To remind you, the primary results of GALACTIC-HF were recently presented at the American Heart Association Scientific Sessions and simultaneously published in the New England Journal of Medicine. The trial demonstrated a statistically significant effect of treatment with omecamtiv mecarbil to reduce the risk of the primary composite endpoint of cardiovascular death or heart failure events, heart failure hospitalizations and other urgent treatment for heart failure when compared to placebo in patients treated with standard of care. While no reduction in the secondary endpoints of time to CV death was observed in the overall population, the effect of omecamtiv mecarbil on the primary composite endpoint was generally consistent across prespecified subgroups with a potentially greater treatment effects adjusted in patients with lower left ventricular ejection fraction. Following the presentation of the results of GALACTIC-HF at the American Heart Association meetings, Amgen and Cytokinetics circled with over 50 opinion leaders through formal advisory board sessions and one-on-one meetings, and we were preparing for a joint synthesis of those meetings to discuss amongst our senior executives. While our discussions with opinion leaders are continuing, the consensus feedback coming out of these meetings is supportive of the role for omecamtiv mecarbil in the treatment of heart failure patients, particularly the sicker heart failure patients, and of our proceeding to engage regulatory authorities to discuss paths forward towards potential registration. These meetings included top academic cardiology thought leaders as well as community-based specialists who lead high-volume heart failure clinics. Collectively, their feedback regarding the results of GALACTIC-HF is that omecamtiv mecarbil appears to offer a profile especially well positioned as a novel mechanism treatment for advanced heart failure patients who are difficult to treat and at high-risk of worsening disease. To elaborate, GALACTIC-HF is a landmark trial and one of the largest ever conducted in heart failure. It demonstrated a positive effect on the primary composite endpoint in patients receiving standard of care plus omecamtiv mecarbil across a broad diversity of patients as it enrolled both inpatients and outpatients. As noted earlier, there was a more pronounced effect in a prespecified subgroup of patients with lower ejection fraction, which is important as it may inform a phenotype of patients most likely to benefit and as will be key to inform physicians, guidelines and payers. Additional analyses of this subgroup are continuing and will be presented and published in the next few months as we believe will further elaborate on the potential of omecamtiv mecarbil in difficult-to-treat advanced heart failure patients who are especially at high-risk of hospitalization and rehospitalization. While we're still getting our arms around the prevalence and incidence of patient numbers associated with this phenotype, we believe it is a sizable population and represents at least hundreds of thousands of patients in the United States whose heart failure continues to advance despite treatment with existing medications. Moreover, it has been estimated that 75% of these patients when hospitalized will succumb to their disease within 5 years of hospitalization, underscoring the importance of new treatments. A potential new medicine that can keep patients out of the hospitals would be welcomed by physicians and payers alike. Physicians develop a close relationship with these patients and are limited by currently available options. This is what we're learning and confirming with opinion leaders. But already, we're encouraged by what we're hearing. Opinion leaders with whom we have engaged have shared their viewpoints on the key value drivers for in-patients, who are often hospitalized and rehospitalized with diagnoses of heart failure. The emerging profile of omecamtiv mecarbil to reduce heart failure hospitalization and other urgent events may afford a solid pharmacoeconomic profile, which would be advantageous to combat economic pressures hospitals are confronting given Medicare penalties for 30-day and 60-day readmissions and as are expected to only get more challenging given the prospect of bundled payments. We and Amgen had planned other meetings with opinion leaders as well as activities to inform the commercial positioning and potential returns on sales and marketing. We will continue and complete those activities, but to repeat, we have already received encouragement to proceed towards regulatory discussions as may inform regulatory submissions, and if successful, potential commercialization. And with that said, our diligent work continues. Now we'll proceed independently and deliberately to complete this work, leveraging our expertise and our leadership in cardiac muscle biology and our long-standing goodwill with the heart failure community. Looking at this opportunity from our optics, initial assessments of the potential commercial opportunity appear attractive to Cytokinetics and would certainly move the needle for our company. While we need to better understand these data, to be clear, I do not foresee a scenario in which we do not engage regulatory authorities and seek feedback around a potential registration path forward. We have support from the Executive Committee of GALACTIC-HF as well as investigators and opinion leaders, and we intend to push forward as may serve the interest of patients, physicians and payers. And yes, we see this as an important opportunity at Cytokinetics to serve our shareholders and to reclaim control over our first-in-class drug candidates and to do so with urgency, leveraging what has arisen from our collaboration. With urgency because the results of GALACTIC-HF underscore potential clinical effect and benefit for omecamtiv mecarbil in an area of high unmet need. At Cytokinetics, we are genuinely committed to advancing a new mechanism medicine in heart failure. We are the pioneers as to muscle biology, and we're leaders in translating that biology to an entirely new pharmacology. We now look forward to proceeding to next steps. However, to be clear, it will take some time to define our time lines, and we will require cooperation in these transitions from Amgen. I'd now like to speak to the terms associated with Amgen terminating our collaboration. Amgen is terminating for convenience. And under our collaboration agreement, upon Amgen's termination, research, development and commercialization rights for compounds, including omecamtiv mecarbil and AMG 594, will transition to Cytokinetics. In addition, Amgen will have certain obligations set forth in the agreement to facilitate a reasonably smooth, orderly and prompt transition of these programs, including transfer and assignment to Cytokinetics of specified regulatory filings, data and other information, if requested by Cytokinetics. Transferring inventory of compounds to Cytokinetics at our expense to the extent possible and requested by Cytokinetics, a signing relevant third-party manufacturing agreements to Cytokinetics and granting to Cytokinetics exclusive and nonexclusive licenses to certain intellectual property rights. Importantly, Cytokinetics will have no trailing royalty obligations, no trailing royalty payment obligations to Amgen for either omecamtiv mecarbil or AMG 594. With Cytokinetics' consent, Amgen previously granted a sublicense to Servier to commercialize omecamtiv mecarbil in Europe and the commonwealth of independent states, including Russia. Cytokinetics previously entered into a letter agreement with Amgen and Servier in 2016, which provides that if Amgen's rights to omecamtiv mecarbil are terminated, Servier becomes a direct licensee of Cytokinetics under substantially the same terms as those in our option, license and collaboration agreement between Amgen and Servier. So what can you expect from us moving forward? We look forward to sharing more data soon and elaborating on analyses already in hand that underscore our enthusiasm for proceeding to discuss this program with regulatory authorities. In the meantime, we plan to be considerably more transparent about feedback from market research, and our expected regulatory interactions. We will also assess what would be required to take omecamtiv mecarbil to market by ourselves or otherwise with a partner, so as to inform a decision regarding our potentially seeking a new co-promotion partner in North America as well as consider licensing in other territories. We can now proceed to independently assess the merits of that strategy and the practicality of our going it alone or with another partner or partners in this area of hospital-based commercialization and outpatient specialty cardiology. We will do our best to move swiftly in the interest of integrity, authentic commitment to good science and genuine service to patients. Operator, with that, we can now open up the call to questions, please.

Operator

operator
#4

[Operator Instructions] Your first question is from the line of Jason Butler with JMP Securities.

Jason Butler

analyst
#5

First one, I get that you're not updating financial guidance here, but can you just give us a sense of what the ballpark costs of the planned activities were with Amgen in terms of continuing to investigate the commercial opportunity, the market research, the dialogue with practitioners and towards the goal of getting regulatory feedback? And then from an R&D perspective, what happens to the cost of METEORIC? Does Amgen continue to cover anything there? And then I have follow-up questions.

Robert I. Blum

executive
#6

Good questions. I'll start, and Ching, if you want to add anything or Fady. To your first question, the costs associated with further engagement of opinion leaders in market research were expected to be modest and shared jointly and those were plans that had been discussed, albeit by people within our organizations at mid-levels and not at the senior-most levels. With regard to our financials. As you've heard from Ching, we expect to end 2020 with over $500 million in cash and cash equivalents on our balance sheet and even as we have this new information and as we peer into 2021, we still expect that will, under all scenarios we're contemplating, represent at least 2 to 3 years of forward cash. With regard to METEORIC, we believe that this study will continue. We had agreed with Amgen with respect to a budget around which METEORIC would be proceeding, as we've already guided to completing enrollment in 2021 and read out results in 2021. Ching or Fady, anything else you want to add?

Ching Jaw

executive
#7

Yes. I would just add that there are multiple scenarios around which we could go to market, either by ourselves or would contract sales organization or would ponder partners, and we will assess the merits and associate the cost of each of these options before determining what our next steps are.

Robert I. Blum

executive
#8

Okay. You could well imagine that those scenarios that Ching is speaking of, which we have been reviewing already, recognizing this could be a potential outcome, are more likely to have effect to our spending in 2022-2023 more than 2021, but we'll be able to get our arms around those in due course and provide proper financial guidance once we have it.

Jason Butler

analyst
#9

Okay. Great. And then obviously, you're still learning about the patient population. But can you give us any sense in terms of a commercial strategy? Is this going to be more focused on hospitals and specialists versus to what extent do you think the commercial outreach would need to focus on primary care docks and community cardiologists?

Robert I. Blum

executive
#10

Very good questions. So we and Amgen have been discussing these matters for years, and that included potential deployment of resources and what each company would be doing, and it had always been our expectation that Cytokinetics would be building an institutional care hospital-based selling force as would be our primary focus. And Amgen's primary focus was going to be cardiologists, specialty care, heart failure specialists in the community. And as such, we have an idea as to what would be deemed competitive with regard to sales and marketing resources as would become optimal for a new medicine. But as you know, given the trial GALACTIC, which looked at patients who were at high risk of hospitalization, given a recent hospitalization, the focus was to be on catching patients as they were in the hospital and being discharged. So we have a handle on what that looks like from a commitment to commercialization. And to your question, yes, it's not a primary care selling activity. It's a specialty care selling activity and one around which we have already some prescribed numbers that we can now understand whether it makes sense from a practicality and tractable standpoint for us to do that ourselves or with fee-for-service contracts or with other co-promotion partners. But it's not at all, as your question implies, something that's so formidable that it would be deemed a primary care effort that would be unaffordable to us. I hope that answers your question.

Operator

operator
#11

Your next question is from the line of Joe Pantginis with H.C. Wainwright.

Joseph Pantginis

analyst
#12

So first, I guess, an observation here: This just appears to be a very, very fast decision by Amgen. And I guess my question is open-ended in the sense that, look, when you look at the data that you put out and your comments today, we're looking at a market population of, let's call it, at least 1 million patients. So the potential for a company to return rights based on having a subpopulation be too small, or something of that nature, certainly does not appear to be the case. So I guess my open-ended question is really at this point, and I know you're still assessing everything that's going on here, but what was Amgen's motivation here? What is the Street missing at this point?

Robert I. Blum

executive
#13

It's a very good question, and I wish I could answer it. I don't know the answer to your question. I've not had senior level interactions with Amgen to explain this decision. Amgen's press release this morning indicated that the results of GALACTIC did not meet their high hurdle. I'm not exactly sure what that's meaning, but I do believe that these results, as we have triangulated with opinion leaders, underscore that those opinion leaders, and we talk to the very top of the ladder heart failure experts together with Amgen as well as everybody up and down, and we're getting a consensus strong support for movement forward. I don't know what Amgen's criteria for advancement were. I think that's a question that would better be posed to Amgen.

Joseph Pantginis

analyst
#14

No, I understand. I appreciate the feedback, Robert. And I guess 2, I guess, smaller questions, if you will, is, I guess, do you have any body language yet from Servier with regarding their commitment to the program? And second, when do you anticipate going to the FDA?

Robert I. Blum

executive
#15

Good questions. As far as I'm aware, Servier learned of this news today, and I'll be moving swiftly to have discussions directly with Servier. They were participants, as Fady can elaborate, in meetings with opinion leaders over the last week, both formal advisory boards and I believe also, they've been doing some of their own independent forensics with their own advisers. As far as going to FDA as soon as we can practically do that, that's going to require some cooperation from Amgen, as I mentioned, but our hope would be to do that within the next few months. And once we can understand better, we'll give more formal guidance. So I expect you'll see that we'll be much more forthcoming about what we're doing now. Please understand that in order to go to FDA, we have to best understand that phenotype that I alluded to before. That's going to require some additional analyses that are ongoing. There are analyses that we have that will soon be presented and published that will elaborate on what we've indicated and as you'll see soon, but there's still further that we and the executive committee of the clinical trial want to do in order to best assess the profile in order to have that meaningfully constructive conversation with FDA and EMA. And in that way, it depends on how quickly those analyses can be completed, framed into briefing books and submitted to regulatory authorities, but we'll do that as rapidly as we can.

Operator

operator
#16

Next question is from the line of Charles Duncan with Cantor Fitzgerald.

Charles Duncan

analyst
#17

I just wanted to follow-up on the last question regarding FDA timing and see if -- it sounds like there's some additional analyses in terms of phenotype understanding, but what about clinical data? What about data from GALACTIC or even METEORIC? Could that impact the timing with which an NDA is filed? And I guess, as an additional question or an extension of the previous question, would you anticipate still being able to file an NDA by the end of '21?

Robert I. Blum

executive
#18

Certainly. But let me first answer your question by saying the phenotype is arising from data from GALACTIC. So it's not like this is not rooted in results from GALACTIC. But let me ask Fady, please, to speak more to how this is all coming together with analyses that will inform strategy.

Fady Malik

executive
#19

Yes. Charles, I think the answer to that part of your question is that GALACTIC is a large study. We were able to construct, if you will, a patient phenotype from baseline characteristics that can inform where the drugs more best apply. And while we pointed to the EF less than 28% subgroup, and that certainly is a meaningful, biologically plausible marker of drug effect, I think that by itself doesn't define the phenotype. You have some patients with lower ejection fractions that haven't been in the hospital for 11, 12 months who are stable on background therapy and have low blood -- normal blood pressures and NT-proBNPs, which are normal. And you have patients with those same ejection fraction who have been in the hospital 2 or 3 times in the last 6 months who have a blood pressure of 100 who are on guideline therapy, but not able to maximize guideline therapy. And so I think it's looking at the GALACTIC data set and thinking what's the patient population where we think omecamtiv mecarbil is best applied. And those are the complex and multivariate analyses that we'll be doing in the coming weeks, and that will help us form strategy by which to approach regulators.

Charles Duncan

analyst
#20

Okay. That's helpful, Fady and Robert. But I guess, an additional question along those lines. Would you imagine that the GALACTIC-HF trial results are sufficient to support an NDA? Or would you imagine that an additional trial need to be conducted? I believe these are subgroup analyses. They were potentially prespecified, but what are your thoughts in terms of additional clinical activities to support an NDA?

Robert I. Blum

executive
#21

Well, certainly, that's what we've been discussing with opinion leaders. Certainly, that's what was intended with GALACTIC. GALACTIC is an 8,000 patient clinical trial that achieved its primary composite endpoint with a p less than 0.05. So it's reasonable for us to assume that it should be, as a pivotal trial, sufficient for NDA submission and potential registration, but we can't obviously know that absent being able to discuss it with regulatory authorities. So that's what we intend to do as soon as we can.

Charles Duncan

analyst
#22

And I guess one additional question on clinical data and then one on Servier. With regard to clinical data and decision by Amgen, was there any additional independent efficacy or safety analysis that they conducted that may have turned the opinion of the company on that beyond just kind of the top line data that we've all seen?

Robert I. Blum

executive
#23

Very good question. So I'll ask Fady to comment further. But the way this is set up, there's a database for GALACTIC and a clone of that database. And there's a database that resides at Amgen, and a clone of that database that resides with the Brigham And Women's Hospital performing independent analysis as they are represented on the executive committee of the clinical trial. And it's been a collaborative and coordinated exercise to perform analyses and to confirm those analyses between those 2 resident databases. Fady, anything you want to add to that?

Fady Malik

executive
#24

Yes. I would just say that we've been sharing analyses and data that have come out of the trial. I'm not aware of anything that we haven't seen. It's not to say that there isn't anything, but I think that right now, all the data that we've -- that's been generated out of the study has been shared amongst the partners.

Charles Duncan

analyst
#25

Okay. That's helpful. Final question on Servier. We haven't paid much attention to that aspect of potential commercialization. And I guess I'm wondering what could come your way now from Servier should they continue to be engaged in the collaboration, in terms of milestone payments or anything?

Robert I. Blum

executive
#26

Exactly. So with our consent, Amgen entered into an arrangement with Servier a few years ago, as Servier provided co-funding and strategic support for the development program they received rights sub-licensed from Amgen, with our consent, to commercialize omecamtiv mecarbil in Europe and those other countries that I mentioned. But subject to the very same obligations that Amgen had to us, meaning Amgen had royalty and milestone payment obligations to us and those become Servier's obligations. Now instead of passing through Amgen, they would become direct obligations to Cytokinetics. But there are other things that we now inherit in terms of obligations to Servier, including as it relates to coordination and supply and other things. So these are details that will still need to be ironed out. But Servier, were they to remain moving forward under a collaboration with Cytokinetics, would have those commercial rights subject to those payments. And this is something that we'll be discussing with Servier. Servier, as you may know, is a leading cardiovascular company in Europe. That's why Amgen, with Cytokinetics' consent, elected to go down that path together. Servier has great expertise in matters associated with commercialization of heart failure medicines in Europe. So that's something that we find very appealing.

Charles Duncan

analyst
#27

I know it would be speculation, but do you sense that Servier has any interest in building a presence in the States?

Robert I. Blum

executive
#28

It's a very good question. It's something -- yes, it's a very good question and something that we will be discussing with them.

Operator

operator
#29

Your next question is from the line of Ted Tenthoff with Piper Sandler.

Edward Tenthoff

analyst
#30

So thanks for the thoughtful update this morning. Obviously, very fluid situation in transit. But I think you provided us with a lot of information. It really seems to me that METEORIC becomes a lot more important at this point. So I just wanted to see if there's any more clarity in terms of enrollment and when we could get data from that trial.

Robert I. Blum

executive
#31

Sure. I'll start and then ask Fady. But I would reiterate what we said months ago and weeks ago, days ago, GALACTIC stands on its own merits. I would not interpret this action of the last few days to suggest that we've changed our views with regard to GALACTIC and its ability to secure potential registration for omecamtiv mecarbil independent of METEORIC. I want to make that clear. METEORIC is a second study, but it was always designed that GALACTIC should be critical path to a potential approval. The executive committee of the clinical trial as well as opinion leaders believe that it's worth discussing this with regulatory authorities as could represent sufficient results for stand-alone approval independent of METEORIC, and that's what we'll do. With regard to your question about METEORIC, let me ask Fady to update you.

Fady Malik

executive
#32

Thanks. Yes. I think, as Robert said, physician and payer community, they're very interested in outcomes, which is what we measured in GALACTIC. The outcome in New York is exercise performance, which certainly speak to an added dimension, but I don't think would drive necessarily uptake and use of omecamtiv mecarbil the -- by itself. And so the -- but to answer your question, New York is continuing. We are hoping to -- our plan is to complete enrollment in the first half of next year, reach trial results by the end of next year. And as Robert indicated, that's not necessarily gating to our proceeding with regulatory interactions on the basis of GALACTIC and filing NDA on the basis of GALACTIC, if that turns out to be if people are amenable to that in next year prior to having the results of METEORIC.

Edward Tenthoff

analyst
#33

Right. I appreciate that. It just -- it seems to me that if you're going to be going for a label of keeping people out of the hospital, which was shown in GALACTIC, the exercise data could be meaningful with respect to that label. One last follow-up question. I think you mentioned sort of what the potential patient population was in terms of how many hospitalizations occur in the U.S. I think it's somewhere around $1 million or so. But could you just refresh what you said on that?

Robert I. Blum

executive
#34

Sure. In the United States, there are 6 million patients and growing with heart failure, roughly half of whom have heart failure with reduced ejection fraction. And amongst those, there are over 1 million primary discharge diagnoses each year with a primary diagnosis of heart failure, meaning there are more than that number who are admitted, treated, some of whom, unfortunately, succumb to their disease in the hospital. And over 1 million discharged diagnosis with a primary diagnosis of heart failure. When you consider the all listed diagnosis, that number, we believe, more than doubles. So these are patients who are in and out, in and out of the hospital. And as Fady can speak to, these advanced heart failure patients with worsening disease are oftentimes maxed out on their existing meds. And what's potentially quite attractive is a new mechanism therapy that could address underlying poor cardiac performance without necessarily introducing other issues associated with adverse effects like lowering blood pressure and impairing renal function. These are patients that are complicated. And as you may have heard on our investor and media event held approximately a week ago, these are patients that are very challenging and oftentimes ones for which physicians don't know what they might do that they haven't already tried. Fady, anything you want to add?

Fady Malik

executive
#35

Yes. I'll just add that I think Mike Selker presented that very well in our investor call in which you pointed to the fact that current therapies begin to be withdrawn in those patients as their heart failure gets worse because they are more difficult to use and they have issues with the adverse consequences of those therapies. And so again, a drug like omecamtiv mecarbil, which is easy to start, doesn't drop blood pressure, doesn't interact with kidney function, things like that, and would help keep those patients out of the hospital, certainly has a lot of appeal to physicians like that. And that's consistent with the feedback we've got from many other opinion leaders.

Robert I. Blum

executive
#36

I believe omecamtiv mecarbil, based on the results of GALACTIC, may be affording a very interesting profile to be considered, and this is what we want to be discussing with physicians and payers alike. But not only have we seen with the results from GALACTIC-HF a favorable safety and tolerability profile in those data and also a consistent effect across prespecified subgroups, but we believe that translates into an economic value story. We need to do further assessments and pressure testing, but we believe that can translate into an economic value story in a population that is amongst the most challenging for those hospitals and physicians given Medicare public policy and other private payer restrictions and penalties. This may be amongst one of the very first medicines where that all comes together if these analyses continue to bear fruit in such a way that there is a very, very fundamentally important pharmacoeconomic value story to be told here as well.

Operator

operator
#37

Your next question is from the line of Dane Leone with Raymond James.

Dane Leone

analyst
#38

Based on a lot of the communications on Amgen, I'm not sure people are totally shocked by this, but nonetheless, I think that the questions to sort out going forward are just kind of, one, from your standpoint, what's the actual time order of what you need to do to figure out how to optimize this program, whether take it forward into a regulatory environment, partner it or do something else with it? So you need the final analyses of GALACTIC, obviously, to understand the profile before speaking with FDA. Do you have a time point on when that will be accomplished? It sounds like your commentary, you do not -- are not interested in waiting for METEORIC to make a decision on the regulatory front and/or overarching strategy. So from that perspective, what do you actually envision as the cost to engage with the KOLs, understand the market? And then what are your preliminary estimates in terms of the cost of the program, if you were to take it forward in the U.S. by yourself? Obviously, I think a lot of us -- what some of my colleagues have been alluding to is just what the ROI would be on the program. Obviously, I think implied from Amgen is that the market wasn't big enough for them to move forward with the cost that they'd have to undertake. But obviously, that could be different for you and/or another partner. And then finally, is there any awareness on your end of why there would be a conflict from maybe an FTC point of view, if a partner such as Merck, who has vericiguat, and/or Novartis, who has Entresto, would be interested in putting this type of drug in their respective channel? I know there's a couple questions there, but we're really just trying to nail down the strategy here.

Robert I. Blum

executive
#39

Sure. Very, very good questions, and I'll try to tick them off. If I miss a couple, please let me know. Let's start with timing. It really depends on cooperation from Amgen, but we were already gearing up for the possibility of engaging regulatory authorities and beginning to think about how that might happen. And we had understood that, that would be something that we could do relatively promptly in the new year. But however, that again depends on further analyses and discussions with opinion leaders. Our hope is that we're in a position in a matter of weeks to know if that's practical and something that we could be doing in first half 2021 and hopefully be able to narrow that guidance potentially as soon as December or January. And that's going to depend on analyses that still need to occur and our understanding how to piece those together. Typically, you request a meeting from FDA; they've got a certain amount of time to grant that request. And you get them a briefing book at least 30 days ahead of that meeting. And the goal would be to make that decision within a matter of a couple of months in order to be able to hopefully get that meeting on the calendar, if not in Q1 then certainly in Q2 2021, but maybe narrow that range once we have better clarity as to what we can expect from Amgen. With regard to your question about cost, the cost associated with getting there are really quite modest. I think we're talking about what is hundreds of thousands of dollars in terms of doing market research and other activities that we intend to inform that path to regulatory interactions. Not millions of dollars. Now that presupposes that we're able to engage Amgen cooperatively in these transitions ahead of the closure of that termination period. The formal termination is 6 months down the road, but our hope is that Amgen will cooperate and engage with us to be enabling of those activities sooner, and we'll have those conversations starting today. Those conversations have not yet started. With regard to the costs associated with commercializing this by ourselves, yes, we have begun knowing that this was a possible scenario to look at that. And as I mentioned before, those costs become higher, obviously, in 2022 and 2023, but I'm not going to speak today to what they are, only to say that as we've already begun to do our cost estimates, and Ching can comment on this, and return on investment, and as we looked at base case scenarios, upside scenarios, and also pessimistic scenarios, that sales thresholds below our base case scenario, have this be affording us a good return on investment, we believe, for Cytokinetics and shareholders, but that's something that needs quite a bit more pressure testing. And I know that there are shareholders who have reservations about us going alone. We need to assess that ourselves. I have my own concerns about what that might look like, especially as our priority remains to also advance CK-274 and to do that with pace, and that is also a key priority for the company. So we need to understand how these would fit together, whether we might finance further activities. There have been funds who have come to us with objective to offer capital to support our commercialization activities in exchange for more royalty. We've also been aware that there are other companies, as you've alluded, who might be interested in this from a co-promotion standpoint. And you mentioned some of the logical ones who might be interested in this. And now we can proceed to discussions with them as could be quite adjacent and complementary to what they're doing, and I do not believe that there would be any anti-trust or anti-competitive aspects associated with complementary mechanisms in an area of heart failure with lots of unmet need. So I think that will answer your question for now, but I recognize there's more that you'll want to know and we'll share that with you more transparently as we can.

Dane Leone

analyst
#40

Just one follow-up on that. Just a point. AMG 594 has also returned. And it seems obviously holistic that Amgen is walking away from the theory of cardiac myosin activation. If you were to re-partner the assets, would you do it holistically with AMG 594, the troponin activator, as well? Would you think still that as a comprehensive program bundled together?

Robert I. Blum

executive
#41

I could very well imagine doing that, yes. AMG 594 is in Phase I and we believe that it should be moving forward and in Phase II in indications that we've been investigating ourselves and together with Amgen, both as would be following behind omecamtiv mecarbil in PEP rep, but also -- and this is important to underscore, as we think there are other forms of heart failure that could benefit from this mechanism. And here, again, that would certainly move the needle for Cytokinetics. Maybe Fady wants to speak a bit about that.

Fady Malik

executive
#42

Yes. No, I think the -- there's certainly a sizable population of heart failure that we can approach with this. The patients that we're talking about are often the most challenging that heart failure physicians have to work with. And so there is still hunger for medicines that can apply in those patients. And fortunately, there are lots of them out there, given the event rates and that you can even see just in the data set that we presented with GALACTIC.

Robert I. Blum

executive
#43

Fady, the question was, though, specific to 594 and other adjacent indications unique that you might also pursue.

Dane Leone

analyst
#44

Yes. Yes. So we actually just a fine point on that as well. And just -- do you have -- I know we are waiting for GALACTIC to read out for a decision jointly between yourself and Amgen for the Phase II strategy with 594. Have you now in light of what -- this is your program now holistically, do you have a decision yet on what the Phase II program would look like?

Fady Malik

executive
#45

Yes. I mean I think it's still a little too early to say, Dane. As we noted, we received this notice just last week. So we'll be looking at how this changes our approach with 594. I don't think it changes it substantially. I think omecamtiv is still a molecule that leads, and we have a huge database with it now, obviously. There are indications that omecamtiv mecarbil didn't address. And we've been conducting advisory meetings and thinking about Phase II planning with regards to AMG 594. But I think in the near term, our focus will be on omecamtiv mecarbil.

Robert I. Blum

executive
#46

Yes. I think it's reasonable to say that we're not likely going to be committing to further development of 594 until we get arms around what it takes to commercialize omecamtiv mecarbil in HFrEF, understand whether that's something that we'll do ourselves or with another partner, and how does that bear on CK-274. Those remain our top priorities.

Operator

operator
#47

Your next question is from the line of Gil Blum with Needham & Company.

Gil Blum

analyst
#48

This is Gil on for Chad. So given that there's a bit of a narrower market here and Amgen is no longer a partner, what are your thoughts about your current commercial preparedness? I mean you've already done considerable amount of work. How -- what additional things should we expect?

Robert I. Blum

executive
#49

Yes. Firstly, I would not characterize this as a narrow market. I would suggest that there's ample opportunity for this to be a meaningfully important commercial program and -- as you'll hear more from Cytokinetics. Amgen makes its decisions based on Amgen optics. But this is a program that I think, as you'll learn more about it, has significant commercial upside as may represent a meaningfully large opportunity for Cytokinetics. So as we have been working in this area for a very long time, our people have been, in many ways, leading the activities associated with medical education, associated with commercial readiness even under our collaboration. We have small teams of medical affairs and medical scientific liaisons and commercial readiness people already deployed in the field who are establishing relationships with thought leaders, who are talking about strategic value, who are engaging in matters associated with positioning, pricing, activities associated with health economics and outcomes research. One of the benefits of being a small company is we've maintained focus and discipline over many years with high continuity amongst our team members. The same people, much like me and Fady, for over 20 years working on this program, we have others at Cytokinetics have been working on this program for many, many years together, working in unison. And I'd say that the commercial plans and activities that have been put forward for omecamtiv mecarbil have largely been designed and architected by Cytokinetics, working collaboratively, of course, with Amgen, but there's no loss of momentum or activity or expertise or know-how in association with our ability to move forward, not in any way.

Gil Blum

analyst
#50

All right. Maybe you kind of alluded to this, but maybe kind of a follow-on here. Should we think differently about the potential pricing of this drug? As you mentioned, maybe still a significant population, but it is smaller than the entire population of heart failure patients.

Robert I. Blum

executive
#51

Sure. So it was never realistic to think that this drug was going to be used for the entire population of heart failure patients, but I do understand your point. Admittedly, omecamtiv mecarbil in GALACTIC-HF, when looking at the overall treatment effect, did not achieve an effect on CV death by itself. But keep in mind, there continue to be additional analyses that are looking at both the composite endpoint in prespecified subgroups as well as the other secondary endpoints in those prespecified subgroups, and you've only seen part of those data and that story continues to emerge. And as we look at this advanced heart failure -- worsening heart failure phenotype, we look forward to seeing what might be effects both on the composite endpoint as well as on secondary endpoints in those prespecified subgroups. What are those that are independent variables? What are those that are dependent variables? How large are those subgroups? How large a magnitude effect is that in those subgroups -- those subgroups, some of them being larger than many contemporary heart failure trials? Given the novelty of the mechanism, given the tolerability profile and safety profile emerging from GALACTIC, it's reasonable to assume those subgroups matter, and that will affect how we think about positioning and pricing. It's premature to get into that until we do formal analyses, qualitative and quantitative market research around pricing, but we'll be forthcoming about that in 2021.

Operator

operator
#52

Your next question is from the line of Jeff Hung with Morgan Stanley.

Lee Hung

analyst
#53

In light of the current announcement, how does this impact your plans for reldesemtiv? Have you made a decision on whether you plan to advance reldesemtiv into Phase III? And if so, what is your expected time line for a study starting?

Robert I. Blum

executive
#54

Very good question. With regard to reldesemtiv, it looks like given this news, that we will defer on starting a Phase III trial until such time as we have our arms around some of these other matters. We do have, in the case of reldesemtiv, regulatory feedback that we believe led to support for progression. We do have start-up activities that would be enabling of the start of that trial. But it wouldn't be prudent of us to commit to that trial beginning until such time as we understand these other priorities and what they would cost us. And as we've always indicated, our first priority is go-to-market with omecamtiv mecarbil with urgency for the benefit of heart failure patients. Our second priority is advanced CK-274 in obstructive HCM and other indications to be able to ensure that we're moving forward that program as aggressively as we can. And our third priority has been ready reldesemtiv for progression to Phase III. Recognizing this news, that third priority will have to wait, hopefully, not too long, but will have to wait until such time as we can understand how we can properly [ prepare ] our first 2 priorities.

Lee Hung

analyst
#55

Understood. And then just a follow-up. You mentioned the regulatory feedback that supports progression for reldesemtiv. Is there any feedback that you've gotten more recently? That kind of color that you can provide? Or is this based off of previous feedback?

Robert I. Blum

executive
#56

Yes. We've received recent feedback from regulatory authorities regarding reldesemtiv that align with interest to move it forward, coalescing between FDA and EMA and other things that, in time, I look forward to being able to share. But first things first. I think we need to prioritize and focus to omecamtiv and CK-274.

Operator

operator
#57

Your next question is from the line of Graig Suvannavejh with Goldman Sachs.

Graig Suvannavejh

analyst
#58

Robert and Ching, I've just maybe got a couple. One, just maybe this is a bit more housekeeping, but in terms of -- in your interest of being more transparent around kind of next steps. Is this something you think what happened before you announced fourth quarter earnings in March? Or should we assume that perhaps given that this is a very dynamic and fluid situation, there's a lot of additional analysis that needs to be done by Cytokinetics that perhaps we might not get an update until then. So the question is really just about timing on when we could hear about potential next steps. My second question has to do with, if you could restate the amount of eligible milestones that had been available to you per the original or the Amgen collaboration and now that obviously will be foregone. Is it fair to assume that you'll have to think about other sources of funding, whether they be dilutive or nondilutive, to kind of replaced in effect what has been lost? And then my third question is with this news, how does this impact or change the 2025 vision that you put out there?

Robert I. Blum

executive
#59

All very good questions. So the first one related to timing. So our Q4 earnings will be reported in February. And I expect before then, you'll hear more from us with respect to progress along this continuum and our intentions to go forward. I don't expect it will be requiring of us to wait until February to give you that information. With respect to the costs associated with -- oh, I'm sorry, you asked about milestone payments. So here, again, those are confidential terms of a collaboration agreement that is still in effect until it's terminated. We've received notice of termination, but it's not yet terminated. And as such, as to those milestone payments we would have been receiving from Amgen and still may receive via Servier, that's something I'll seek counsel on as to how we can provide better guidance and clarity to inform your interest. But however, obviously, it will be lesser than what might have been had Amgen not provided notice of termination. And I'll ask Ching to speak to how we're thinking about cash flows and whether this will have effect to our current budget for 2021. And I'll come back and speak about Vision 2025.

Ching Jaw

executive
#60

Graig, this is Ching here. So first off, with respect to the milestones, I will just say that in our internal planning, we always probability adjust future milestone payments from partners. So even though you're right that we're not in position to have to replace some of those milestone payments, what we have planned for was not 100% of what we're entitled for. So the replacement value as high as you had originally assumed. With respect to our 2021 spending, we are going to give guidance in our Q4 earnings call early next year. But as Robert said earlier, that we expect to end this year with over $500 million in cash. And that $500 million, we believe, represents over 2 years of forward cash even under this scenario. So I think from a financial standpoint, we're still on very strong footing.

Robert I. Blum

executive
#61

So we have a plan to go forward with priorities in 2021 that was not predicated on earning milestone payments nor predicated on any other financings, dilutive or nondilutive. And we're in a position to continue to execute on those goals and those plans, given the cash balance that Ching just spoke to. Obviously, looking beyond 2021, we need to think about our cash runway and how that informs 2022 and 2023. And I would hope that by early 2021, we're in a good position to assess what we might want to do in connection with partnering as to maybe inform how we can extend cash rate -- cash runway even further. And to your point about Vision 2025, it doesn't change. Our Vision 2025 remains -- how we get there may now need to be altered, but it remains our commitment to bring at least 2, if not 3, new medicines to patients by 2025 and to double the number of programs in our development pipeline.

Operator

operator
#62

Your final question is from the line of Salim Syed with Mizuho.

Salim Syed

analyst
#63

Just a few for me, if I can. So when I'm thinking about the math here, Robert. So before, for every $100 million of sales, let's call it, just in the U.S. market for now, that Amgen was going to sell, right, you would get $20 million of that approximately, right? Now for every [ 100 ], yes, you have to pay your own COGS, call it, 10% figure, there's not very much in R&D because you've already done pretty much all the R&D you need to do for this. In SG&A, let's call it, 20% you're now at a 70% margin. So -- but I don't hear that in the tone that this is a 3x EBIT on a dollar perspective for you. So I'm just kind of wondering, what am I missing? And where is the disconnect? Is that the right framework to think about the economics here, the potential upside here in the difference in terms? The second question I had was you mentioned that Amgen is terminating for convenience. And I was just wondering how convenience was defined in the collaboration agreement. Is there some math-based thing there? Or like what is -- how does convenience get defined in this legal contract that you guys had? And then thirdly, I was just wondering about Servier. Is there an option here for them to also exit the agreement now that there's been a change in going from Amgen to you guys -- the sublicense going from Amgen to you guys?

Robert I. Blum

executive
#64

Sure. Let me take the first one. I may ask Libby, our Head of Business Development, to address the third one. But starting with your math, I think you are absolutely in the right direction. Why aren't we making a bigger point of that? Because we don't still have our arms around this from the standpoint of what's required from the expenditure standpoint to build the infrastructure that we are otherwise going to be leveraging at Amgen. Amgen has a distribution infrastructure. Amgen has certain capabilities that we don't have, and we'll either now need to buy or rent or potentially partner. But you're absolutely right with respect to us going from having a royalty interest to what will be a profits interest. Now we do have a good handle on what was going to be required from the standpoint of selling FTEs and resources. And that's not thousands of FTEs, but hundreds and low hundreds. And that's something that we think is extremely practical, but still requires investment. And if you think about this as a medicine that can generate maybe not multiple billions of dollars of sales at some point, some estimates have been quite high, but rather hundreds of millions of dollars and maybe even 1 to 2, who knows? What I can tell you is, depending on where you are along that continuum, the investment required to secure those sales and profits would be something that I think would put Cytokinetics in rarefied air with respect to peer group companies and something that we're very interested to explore. But at the same time, not at the expense of CK-274 and not at the expense of continuing to maintain our sustainable business enterprise. So we have to do this in a responsible way. But I do think your math is correct. And you don't have to see this drug be doing billions of dollars for there to be a very attractive return on investment. So as you're doing that math, and as we've done that math, I think what you're asking aligns with what we want to pursue and understand first. Your second question related to the term convenience, and I'll speak to what is generally the case. Again, I'm not going to speak to what is specific under our collaboration agreement. But typically, when a collaboration is terminated for convenience, it's at the discretion of one party without as would be prompted by any breach or any other bad behavior or issues underscoring the collaboration that would be rendering 1 party responsible to the other beyond what would be deemed their opt-out for reasons that are specific to that party. Amgen had this right to terminate for convenience over 14 years and chose not to do it until Friday. So there's nothing to suggest anything other than they just changed their mind about whether this continues to align with their interest going forward. And I'll ask maybe Libby to speak to anything further on that matter, or Mark, anything further on that matter as well as your question about Servier and their rights to terminate. Starting with Libby.

Elisabeth Schnieders

executive
#65

Yes, Robert. I don't think that there's more that we can really add. Their termination provisions under every collaboration and license agreement, but there is nothing specific that we can comment that's public information at this time.

Robert I. Blum

executive
#66

And as to Servier, is there anything we can say about that? Or is that also confidential such that we can't comment at this time?

Elisabeth Schnieders

executive
#67

Yes. For clarity, I was referring to the Servier agreement. What is in the public domain and you've already covered regarding Amgen's termination notice that it's in effect 6 months from now.

Salim Syed

analyst
#68

Okay. So to be clear...

Mark Schlossberg

executive
#69

[indiscernible] Just to ride now this. There was no definition of convenience. It's just the right to provide notice. And that's what they did.

Salim Syed

analyst
#70

Okay. So to be clear, on the Servier piece here, we don't know if there is an option for them to exit?

Elisabeth Schnieders

executive
#71

Just to repeat what I -- every agreement has termination provisions. We just don't have public information that we can share regarding the nature of those.

Operator

operator
#72

There are no further questions. I will turn the call back over to Cytokinetics for any closing remarks.

Robert I. Blum

executive
#73

Thank you, operator. So obviously, today's news is very important. It's very important for our science, for our development activities and for our company. It's a very important turning of the page for this program as it relates to cardiac muscle activation, both omecamtiv mecarbil and AMG 594. We've been in collaboration with Amgen going on 14 years. And during that time, we together conducted a very rigorous clinical trials program for omecamtiv mecarbil, a program that comprised over 30 clinical trials. And as GALACTIC represents the punctuation point on that program, we have feedback from opinion leaders up and down the ladder, people who have written the textbooks on heart failure and others, all the way down to those who treat heart failure patients every day in the communities. And these are folks around whom we're rallying for their feedback as to what might be our next steps. And the general consensus has been, one should take these data to regulatory authorities and discuss the profile of this novel mechanism drug candidate from GALACTIC, as could lend support for registration for particularly difficult-to-treat patients. We're listening to that feedback, and we're preparing to make that happen. And as to go forward, we see this as reclaiming our future at Cytokinetics. We've benefited from this collaboration, as has the program. But at the same time, it's time for us to step up and take this to the next level, and we're ready to make that happen. We look forward to sharing more information with investors and analysts, other stakeholders, over the next weeks and months as we'll provide more clarity on our next steps. Thank you for your interest in this news today. And if you have other follow-up questions of us, please let us know. We look forward to keeping you updated on our progress. And with that, operator, we can now conclude the call.

Operator

operator
#74

Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. This concludes the Cytokinetics conference call. You may now disconnect.

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